The SEPARATION of CHURCH and STATE

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The SEPARATION of CHURCH and STATE

Postby Prince Cadmus II » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:08 am

Contrary to popular perception, and current in the Aounist orange, the often misconceived idea of the role of the Church and of the State is being played frequently on the wrong chord. "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's" is often wailed by those who accidentally believe they know what they are talking about.

In today's world, rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's translates to the separation of Church from State, as an institution. What this means is that for example, a minister of the Church should really avoid being a minister of the state at the same time. This is a conflict of interest, however it has been played out throughout history where the absence of any form of government has meant the political leadership of religious fellows.

People seem to confuse what is meant by this separation of Church and State, and dangerously go on to suggest that Men of the Church should be "excluded" from the national public discourse. Yes they are Men of the Church, but they are also citizens of the state. All religions have a duty to at least attempt to guide the world into peace, and excluding them from the public discourse is an extremely dangerous attitude common in violent circles, as shown in the current Aounist trend, and examples of which were pointed out by Haroun via links such as: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aEwI-ea2i8&feature=related

The Separation of Church and State means Men of the Church should be Men of the Church and not politicians. However it DOES NOT EXCLUDE THEM from participating in public matters! They have a democratic right to voice their opinions and ask for obedience especially in difficult times.

Shame on the Aounist Orange for going down this path under the banner of freedom and independence.
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Postby danyhr » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:15 am

I agree. I think people don't stop and think about the concept before they talk. "Separation" - how. In court, you swear on the bible; the laws upon which our societies (civil ones, anyway) are governed are drawn from religious guidance...

Especially in Lebanon, because IT IS ONE OF THE HOLY LANDS the decision is pretty much made up for us - IT CANNOT BE SEPARATED.

It is up to the christians in the end to save Lebanon from the current situation. No-one else. Read any historical document, it will tell you that it was the Maronites that built Lebanon into what it is, so, whilst respecting all others, we had better get our crap together before our ancestors come and haunt us in our sleep.
In much of your talking, thinking is half murdered - GKG.
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Postby Prince Cadmus II » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:30 am

That's definitely the right mode of thinking danyhr. The separation is one of institutional backbone and absolutely does not mean the exclusion of religious persons of those sects making their voices heard.

In Lebanon, with respect to executive powers, ministries are divided up confessionally, by representation from different confessions. It does not at all mean that one sect has any power over another, or "ruling" the other. In the end, they are LAY PEOPLE who are appointed from those communities and has nothing at all to do with the religious sect's institution governing the matters, this is what the separation of Church and State is.

The Church leaders will always comment on everyday matters: after all, that is what their sermons are for, even outside of the Mass, they are to teach and to encourage (notice how they don't enforce it: ie tyre burning, road blocking, weapons brandishing...). To exclude them is to absolutely demolish what the Church is there for as an institution for the propagation of virtue and faith, and it is also a spiteful attack in the face of democracy no matter what shape, way or form it may take.
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Postby haroun » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:00 pm

What you are discussing here seems to apply only on the Christians. It doesn’t look good when a religious leader is challenged and proven wrong in every decision or opinion he expresses after he wades knee deep in politics. Take the events of the past few weeks:
They begged the patriarch to name candidates and assured him that one of them will be elected. He obliged in good faith after it was presented by no other than the foreign minister of the great nation of France and what happened?
1. Aoun declared himself the political patriarch of the Christian.
2. Politicians trashed his choices and selected yet another general M. Syrianman from the same school as the lunatic Aoun
3. He (Batrak) was attacked by the Shi3a muftis who said the Shi3a don’t give a damn about his choices and their deputies don’t have to vote if they don’t want to.

In Lebanon, religion is forever intertwined in people private lives and the states affairs to the point that religious leader can shut down the country, burn neighborhoods, wage wars, build mini states, have a foreign policy of their own and attack other political and religious lpersonalities day after day.

I wonder sometimes if the clergy is doing what it supposed to do especially when it comes to promoting and teaching: morals and virtues.

شمعون: حرام أن يعير احد عون أهمية لأن دواءه ليس عندنا بل في العصفورية
الجوزو: لقد سقط لبنان وسقطت حكوماته، بفضل إرهاب حزب الله
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Postby Prince Cadmus II » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:09 pm

Well, in this case Haroun, it can only be seen as the final war between Good and Evil. Good will always win, and people with sinister values who wish to attack Men of God, will be doing so at any cost to spitefully bring about their end.

But alas, "I say that you are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, and even the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

We will not surrender to spitefulness and stupidity, ever. Let them say what they want to say because they will never be able to strike the rock with their sticks.
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Postby Abou Jamra » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:36 pm

Switch on to LBC and listen to GMA he is discussing this very issue now.

8 ـ بكركي كانت وتبقى المرجعية الروحية والوطنية التي لا نزاع عليها. ولكي تبقى كذلك يجب أن لا يسمح لأحد باستخدامها كسلطة موازية أو منافسة للقيادة السياسية ، وهي تنأى بنفسها عن التجاذبات السياسية بالاقتداء والعمل بنص الارشاد الرسولي الذي جاء في فقرته 112 ما حرفيته : " إن الكنيسة لا يمكن الدمج بينها وبين الجماعة السياسية بأي حال من الاحوال ولا تلتزم بأي نظام سياسي ... فليس لها اذن أن تلتزم مباشرة الحياة السياسية لأنه ليس عندها في الواقع حلولاً تقنية ... ولا تقترح أنظمة ولا برامج اقتصادية وسياسية ولا تبدي إيثاراً لهذه أو تلك ، شرط أن تظل كرامة الانسان محترمة ومعززة ... بحيث أنه من واجب الكنيسة أن تذكر بلا ملل بالمبادىء التي هي وحدها تستطيع أن تؤمن حياة اجتماعية متناسقة
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Postby haroun » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:46 pm

Who the ???k this lymoun effindi thinks he is to define or remind Bkirki of its role? He should be thankfull for what it has done for him and shut up.

Since when this man who sold his soul and made a deal with terrorists has the right to decide what the church ought or ought not to do? Christians don't need him to interpret Bkirke, they've been together over 1500 years, they may care to know what he thinks Syria and Iran should be doing in Lebnen.

شمعون: حرام أن يعير احد عون أهمية لأن دواءه ليس عندنا بل في العصفورية
الجوزو: لقد سقط لبنان وسقطت حكوماته، بفضل إرهاب حزب الله
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Postby Prince Cadmus II » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:18 am

I'd like to remind everyone that Patriarch Sfeir didn't run away from adversity to another country unlike someone here, he remained in his seat at Bkerke throughout good times and bad and fulfilled his role as leader of his flock. So, in retrospect, to remind the Patriarch of his role is an absolute spit in the face from someone who couldn't even match half the achievements of the Patriarch.

As it stands, the Patriarch is a much better politician (aside from religious duties) than anyone who has criticised him so far because he is not working to save himself and fill his pockets, instead he sacrifices his own safety by speaking out against maldoings and the social virus that fornicated the message of the NATIVITY to NEGATIVITY!
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Postby Abou Jamra » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:57 pm

Prince Cadmus II wrote: So, in retrospect, to remind the Patriarch of his role is an absolute spit in the face from someone who couldn't even match half the achievements of the Patriarch.


Please do list me some of Sfeir's achievements.

thanks :-)
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Postby haroun » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:07 am

Abou Jamra wrote: Please do list me some of Sfeir's achievements.


May Glory of Lebanon be his always.
He presided over the mountain reconciliation between Christians and Druze.
Shepherd the community when its leaders were imprisoned or exiled
Defended the rights of the oppressed and fought the Syrian single handedly.
Visited and earned the respect of many great world leaders
Eased the pains of freedom fighters in jails
Became a Cardinal of the Catholic Church
Endured humiliation by Aoun and his ourta.
Spiritual leader of Kournet shehwan in their fight against Syrian oppression.
Guided the Maronites and the Christians of Lebanon through their darkest years.
He continues to preach country, love and reconciliation.

I think someone with this resume must not be questioned by a man who lost two wars and deserted his troops in the midst of battle.

شمعون: حرام أن يعير احد عون أهمية لأن دواءه ليس عندنا بل في العصفورية
الجوزو: لقد سقط لبنان وسقطت حكوماته، بفضل إرهاب حزب الله
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Postby Abou Jamra » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:36 am

He presided over the mountain reconciliation between Christians and Druze.


Still many are displaced and many more remain uncompensated. Credit goes to Jumblatt for this, it was he who approached Sfeir not vice versa! and not out of the goodness of his heart but rather for political reasons.


Shepherd the community when its leaders were imprisoned or exiled


sheperded them and let them straight to the doors on foreign embassies. Lebanon witnessed the largest migration of christians during his term.

Defended the rights of the oppressed and fought the Syrian single handedly.


What rights??? He fought them to no effect. It was GMA's Syrian accountability act (which led to 1559) that was responsible for the withdrawl of Syrian troops from Lebanon not Sfeirs sermons.

Visited and earned the respect of many great world leaders


:? :?
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Eased the pains of freedom fighters in jails


How? He heard JaaJaa confession in Jail? You dont ease someones pain by asking them to pray the our father twice an the hail mary three times.

Became a Cardinal of the Catholic Church


lol he gets to vote for pope, but his opinion is overlooked in the Lebanese presidential elections and he cant even reverse a simple Parish priest decision in Jieh.

Endured humiliation by Aoun and his ourta.


When a person is in the wrong he has no choice but to endure humiliation.

Spiritual leader of Kournet shehwan in their fight against Syrian oppression.


That's cute and quite an achievment. Bas 7aram they betrayed him. What did that mob achieve anyway?

Guided the Maronites and the Christians of Lebanon through their darkest years.


Refer to the comment i made about him sheperding the maronites.

He continues to preach country, love and reconciliation


So does Michael Jackson and Jouzou.
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Postby Prince Cadmus II » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:47 pm

Not only has Aoun urged the Syrian Accountability and Lebanese Restoration Act, but it seems he installed the Mar Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir Accountability and Orange Aounist Elevation Act.

Anyone can sit around here all day making up swipes at the Patriarch of course because when you want to dig for dirt and there is none, you make it up. The Patriarch is a Shepherd and if Aoun and his crew are jealous of that then they can go and start up their own religion... You can't sit there claiming to be political when people like Aoun keep drawing the Christian sword on political matters when they ran away for 15 years like a dog with its tail between its leg! Is that what you call leadership? Or is that scaredy-catship? "Oh, I'll just run away when I can't handle it anymore, apparently I'm a leader, but so what, I'm a scaredy cat too, I'll only return when the situation suits me best because I'm a selfish minded opportunist!" The Patriarch didn't go that way, the Patriarch stood his turf and defended Christians and the Lebanese people in the darkest of times. That in itself outdoes all the achievements any of his opponents have made.

Now tell me, why the hell would Aoun be concerned about "THE CHRISTIAN CAUSE" if apparently he is to be concerned with politics only?

Did he not 1 week ago tell the patriarch to keep to religious matters, reminding him of what his role is? Then again, regarding his own flawed role as 'leader of the Christian people', did that role include running away like a pussycat for 15 years?

Also, why the hell then would Aoun be worried about the degradation of Christians and their role in the country if problems concerning Christians are meant to be a religious role? SORRY AOUN, BUT THAT'S THE PATRIARCH'S JOB, NOT YOURS! PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH BEFORE YOU PREACH IT!!!!! (no pun intended)

So, you want my advice? Fine, Sfeir you keep to religion, but to Aoun: STOP drawing the Christian sword in battle and don't you dare bring up religion. Keep to politics since that's your self proclaimed domain and keep to non-religious politics because you are meant to be a civil leader, not a Christian one. You can't have it both ways with double standards.

Sorry to ruin your sinister dreams but it's what you preached 1 week ago.
Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.
"Upon the Tsurian sea the people live who style themselves Phoenicians...
These were the first great founders of the world
Founders of cities and of mighty states"
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